[PATCH] Fix first_weekday/first_workday for EU locales

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[PATCH] Fix first_weekday/first_workday for EU locales

Jeff Law

Changes to fix the contact points will be handled independently and
en-masse across the 300+ locales after I return from a short vacation.

This patch fixes the first_weekday/first_workday per my message from May
23.  If nobody's committed this by June 6, then I'll do so at that time.
  I'm posting it now in case Carlos or someone wants to move forward a
little faster and get it in prior to 2.16 branching.



2012-06-01  Jeff Law  <[hidden email]>

         * locales/en_ES: Fix first_weekday and first_workday.
         * locales/{ast_ES, br_FR, cy_GB, de_DE, de_LU}: Likewise.
         * locales/{el_GR, en_IE, eu_ES, fr_LU, fy_NL}: Likewise.
         * locales/{ga_IE, gd_GB, gl_ES, gv_GB, it_IT}: Likewise.
         * locales/{kw_GB, lij_IT, lt_LT, lv_LV, mt_MT}: Likewise.
         * locales/{nl_BE, oc_FR, pt_PT, tr_CY, wa_BE}: Likewise.
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Re: [PATCH] Fix first_weekday/first_workday for EU locales

Carlos O'Donell-2
On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Jeff Law <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Changes to fix the contact points will be handled independently and en-masse
> across the 300+ locales after I return from a short vacation.
>
> This patch fixes the first_weekday/first_workday per my message from May 23.
>  If nobody's committed this by June 6, then I'll do so at that time.  I'm
> posting it now in case Carlos or someone wants to move forward a little
> faster and get it in prior to 2.16 branching.
>
>
>
> 2012-06-01  Jeff Law  <[hidden email]>
>
>        * locales/en_ES: Fix first_weekday and first_workday.
>        * locales/{ast_ES, br_FR, cy_GB, de_DE, de_LU}: Likewise.
>        * locales/{el_GR, en_IE, eu_ES, fr_LU, fy_NL}: Likewise.
>        * locales/{ga_IE, gd_GB, gl_ES, gv_GB, it_IT}: Likewise.
>        * locales/{kw_GB, lij_IT, lt_LT, lv_LV, mt_MT}: Likewise.
>        * locales/{nl_BE, oc_FR, pt_PT, tr_CY, wa_BE}: Likewise.

This looks good. Please check this in.

The 2.16 branching is delayed slightly as I've been away on family
leave for a week.

I'll be posting a 2.16 status update today.

Cheers,
Carlos.
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Re: [PATCH] Fix first_weekday/first_workday for EU locales

Petr Baudis
In reply to this post by Jeff Law
  Hi!

On Fri, Jun 01, 2012 at 12:32:56PM -0600, Jeff Law wrote:
> Changes to fix the contact points will be handled independently and
> en-masse across the 300+ locales after I return from a short
> vacation.
>
> This patch fixes the first_weekday/first_workday per my message from
> May 23.  If nobody's committed this by June 6, then I'll do so at
> that time.  I'm posting it now in case Carlos or someone wants to
> move forward a little faster and get it in prior to 2.16 branching.

  I have committed this patch, thanks for working on it!

  However, I decided to defer on the change to pt_PT. While legally,
it is probably bound by the EU adoption of ISO8601, I have doubts
about adoption of this in daily life, based on:

        http://www.learn-portuguese-with-rafa.com/days-of-the-week-in-portuguese.html
        http://www.netplaces.com/brazilian-portuguese/the-vocabulary-of-numbers/days-of-the-week.htm
        http://www.brazil-help.com/week.htm
        <Adhemerval Zanella Netto> yes, Sunday is in fact the first day
                in the week in Brazil (IRC #glibc)

Most of the resources are about pt_BR, but also based on the language,
I'm not sure this change is right for pt_PT either. I think more
confirmation is required before making this change, therefore. Other
locales seemed fine to me on a cursory inspection.

--
                                Petr "Pasky" Baudis
        Smart data structures and dumb code works a lot better
        than the other way around.  -- Eric S. Raymond
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Re: [PATCH] Fix first_weekday/first_workday for EU locales

Pedro Alves-7
On 06/04/2012 05:54 PM, Petr Baudis wrote:

>   Hi!
>
> On Fri, Jun 01, 2012 at 12:32:56PM -0600, Jeff Law wrote:
>> Changes to fix the contact points will be handled independently and
>> en-masse across the 300+ locales after I return from a short
>> vacation.
>>
>> This patch fixes the first_weekday/first_workday per my message from
>> May 23.  If nobody's committed this by June 6, then I'll do so at
>> that time.  I'm posting it now in case Carlos or someone wants to
>> move forward a little faster and get it in prior to 2.16 branching.
>
>   I have committed this patch, thanks for working on it!
>
>   However, I decided to defer on the change to pt_PT. While legally,
> it is probably bound by the EU adoption of ISO8601, I have doubts
> about adoption of this in daily life, based on:
>
> http://www.learn-portuguese-with-rafa.com/days-of-the-week-in-portuguese.html
> http://www.netplaces.com/brazilian-portuguese/the-vocabulary-of-numbers/days-of-the-week.htm
> http://www.brazil-help.com/week.htm
> <Adhemerval Zanella Netto> yes, Sunday is in fact the first day
> in the week in Brazil (IRC #glibc)
>
> Most of the resources are about pt_BR, but also based on the language,
> I'm not sure this change is right for pt_PT either. I think more
> confirmation is required before making this change, therefore. Other
> locales seemed fine to me on a cursory inspection.


Yes, Sunday is considered the first day of the week in
Portugal, with Monday being the first work day of the week.  (Brazil
naturally gets that from Portugal.  The current day of the week naming
scheme got into use starting from the VI century, way before colonization
of Brazil.)  The latter means that nobody is really shocked with
saying Monday is the first day of the week, as that's how most people
actually think in practice.  I don't recall ever thinking on a
Saturday night something along the lines of "bummer, another week starts
tomorrow".  :-)

I don't know where to look for the official government's position on
this, but I wouldn't be shocked if it were to follow ISO8601.

--
Pedro Alves
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Re: [PATCH] Fix first_weekday/first_workday for EU locales

Petr Baudis
On Mon, Jun 04, 2012 at 06:40:30PM +0100, Pedro Alves wrote:
> Yes, Sunday is considered the first day of the week in
> Portugal, with Monday being the first work day of the week.
..snip..
> The latter means that nobody is really shocked with
> saying Monday is the first day of the week, as that's how most people
> actually think in practice.  I don't recall ever thinking on a
> Saturday night something along the lines of "bummer, another week starts
> tomorrow".  :-)

  Thanks for the info! Right, but is this how people actually think e.g.
in the US? The situation should be the same there.

  I have a little bit of trouble assessing this since I have no
experience of living in a country where Monday might not be considered
the first day of the week, so it's not easy to imagine for me...

                                Petr "Pasky" Baudis
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Re: [PATCH] Fix first_weekday/first_workday for EU locales

Russ Allbery
Petr Baudis <[hidden email]> writes:

>   Thanks for the info! Right, but is this how people actually think e.g.
> in the US? The situation should be the same there.

All calendars that I've ever seen printed in the US run from Sunday to
Saturday.  I think that's a fairly good way of seeing what the day-to-day
usage looks like: look at the printed calendars sold on the mass market
and see how they organize the week.

What do printed calendars in Portugal look like?

--
Russ Allbery ([hidden email])             <http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
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Re: [PATCH] Fix first_weekday/first_workday for EU locales

Jeff Law
In reply to this post by Carlos O'Donell-2
On 06/02/2012 11:18 AM, Carlos O'Donell wrote:

> On Fri, Jun 1, 2012 at 2:32 PM, Jeff Law<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>>
>> Changes to fix the contact points will be handled independently and en-masse
>> across the 300+ locales after I return from a short vacation.
>>
>> This patch fixes the first_weekday/first_workday per my message from May 23.
>>   If nobody's committed this by June 6, then I'll do so at that time.  I'm
>> posting it now in case Carlos or someone wants to move forward a little
>> faster and get it in prior to 2.16 branching.
>>
>>
>>
>> 2012-06-01  Jeff Law<[hidden email]>
>>
>>         * locales/en_ES: Fix first_weekday and first_workday.
>>         * locales/{ast_ES, br_FR, cy_GB, de_DE, de_LU}: Likewise.
>>         * locales/{el_GR, en_IE, eu_ES, fr_LU, fy_NL}: Likewise.
>>         * locales/{ga_IE, gd_GB, gl_ES, gv_GB, it_IT}: Likewise.
>>         * locales/{kw_GB, lij_IT, lt_LT, lv_LV, mt_MT}: Likewise.
>>         * locales/{nl_BE, oc_FR, pt_PT, tr_CY, wa_BE}: Likewise.
>
> This looks good. Please check this in.
>
> The 2.16 branching is delayed slightly as I've been away on family
> leave for a week.
>
> I'll be posting a 2.16 status update today.
Sorry, I was away until this morning.  It looks like Petr checked it in
with the exception of one or two which were slightly controversial.
It's still a significant improvement.

I'm digging out, but plan to do the en-mass fixing of addresses; then
I'm happy to participate in setting a reasonable set of rules so that
locale issues can move forward in the future.

jeff
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Re: [PATCH] Fix first_weekday/first_workday for EU locales

Petr Baudis
On Tue, Jun 05, 2012 at 11:08:15AM -0600, Jeff Law wrote:
> I'm digging out, but plan to do the en-mass fixing of addresses;
> then I'm happy to participate in setting a reasonable set of rules
> so that locale issues can move forward in the future.

  I have tried to document the current consensus at

        http://sourceware.org/glibc/wiki/Contribution%20checklist#Qualification_.28Locales.29

some time ago. Any comments / suggestions are of course welcome!

                                Petr "Pasky" Baudis
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Re: [PATCH] Fix first_weekday/first_workday for EU locales

Jeff Law
On 06/05/2012 12:05 PM, Petr Baudis wrote:

> On Tue, Jun 05, 2012 at 11:08:15AM -0600, Jeff Law wrote:
>> I'm digging out, but plan to do the en-mass fixing of addresses;
>> then I'm happy to participate in setting a reasonable set of rules
>> so that locale issues can move forward in the future.
>
>    I have tried to document the current consensus at
>
> http://sourceware.org/glibc/wiki/Contribution%20checklist#Qualification_.28Locales.29
>
> some time ago. Any comments / suggestions are of course welcome!
What about referencing CLDR; Uli claimed it wasn't accurate, but never
provided any details.

jeff
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Re: [PATCH] Fix first_weekday/first_workday for EU locales

Petr Baudis
On Wed, Jun 06, 2012 at 02:41:47PM -0600, Jeff Law wrote:

> On 06/05/2012 12:05 PM, Petr Baudis wrote:
> >On Tue, Jun 05, 2012 at 11:08:15AM -0600, Jeff Law wrote:
> >>I'm digging out, but plan to do the en-mass fixing of addresses;
> >>then I'm happy to participate in setting a reasonable set of rules
> >>so that locale issues can move forward in the future.
> >
> >   I have tried to document the current consensus at
> >
> > http://sourceware.org/glibc/wiki/Contribution%20checklist#Qualification_.28Locales.29
> >
> >some time ago. Any comments / suggestions are of course welcome!
> What about referencing CLDR; Uli claimed it wasn't accurate, but
> never provided any details.

Indeed.  I still don't feel comfortable with blindly updating data from
CLDR (since I'm not very familiar with the repository and its policies
yet), but given its wide userbase I see nothing wrong with taking CLDR
reference as a *very* strong supporting argument for a change.

In very long term IMHO it would be sensible to slowly reduce differences
to CLDR (by appropriate changes on both sides) and finally switch to
CLDR providing locale data. Avoiding two redundant databases seems even
more appropriate given the recent legal opinion that locale data are not
copyrighted and therefore there are no licencing and philosophical
(freedom) considerations here.

However, if we want to go that way, this should probably happen
very gradually so that we can get familiar and comfortable with CLDR
processes and policies - right now, I don't really know much about it
personally. For starters, a tool that quickly gives a diff between
glibc and CLDR locale data would be awesome (and likely straightforward
by reusing existing tools). I will put that on my TODO list, but it
will be probably fairly easy to beat me to it.

--
                                Petr "Pasky" Baudis
        Smart data structures and dumb code works a lot better
        than the other way around.  -- Eric S. Raymond
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Re: [PATCH] Fix first_weekday/first_workday for EU locales

Jeff Law
On 06/06/2012 03:37 PM, Petr Baudis wrote:
> Indeed.  I still don't feel comfortable with blindly updating data from
> CLDR (since I'm not very familiar with the repository and its policies
> yet), but given its wide userbase I see nothing wrong with taking CLDR
> reference as a *very* strong supporting argument for a change.
That's the model that makes the most sense to me -- ie, CLDR as a strong
supporting argument for a change.  Ideally we'd get to a point where any
differences between glibc and CLDR are minimal and documented.

>
> In very long term IMHO it would be sensible to slowly reduce differences
> to CLDR (by appropriate changes on both sides) and finally switch to
> CLDR providing locale data. Avoiding two redundant databases seems even
> more appropriate given the recent legal opinion that locale data are not
> copyrighted and therefore there are no licencing and philosophical
> (freedom) considerations here.
The concern expressed to me (privately) is the two locale databases have
significantly different formats for their data, thus consolidating down
to a single database may require a nontrivial amount of work (assuming
we could get to the point where everyone agreed on all the underlying data).

Jeff
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Re: [PATCH] Fix first_weekday/first_workday for EU locales

Joseph Myers
In reply to this post by Petr Baudis
On Wed, 6 Jun 2012, Petr Baudis wrote:

> However, if we want to go that way, this should probably happen
> very gradually so that we can get familiar and comfortable with CLDR
> processes and policies - right now, I don't really know much about it
> personally. For starters, a tool that quickly gives a diff between
> glibc and CLDR locale data would be awesome (and likely straightforward
> by reusing existing tools). I will put that on my TODO list, but it
> will be probably fairly easy to beat me to it.

One starting point might also be understanding how the character type and
collation information relates to old versions of Unicode data and moving
to automatic updates from current Unicode data (bugs 14094 and 14095).

--
Joseph S. Myers
[hidden email]