[Bug localedata/4789] New: incorrect abmon in polish locales

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[Bug localedata/4789] New: incorrect abmon in polish locales

glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de
Product: Glibc
Version: 2.6.3, 2.6.4 OS: Linux
Steps to Reproduce: Change LC_TIME to "pl_PL.UTF-8"
Reproduce: always
Comment: file pl_PL version 1.19 displaying date with roman cipher e.g. (for
today) 13-VII-07. Everythig was ok. in ver. 1.18, look at:
http://sources.redhat.com/cgi-bin/cvsweb.cgi/libc/localedata/locales/pl_PL.diff?r1=1.18&r2=1.19&cvsroot=glibc&f=h
Roman cipher aren't polish abbreviation of months ("VII" isn't polish abb. of July).

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           Summary: incorrect abmon in polish locales
           Product: glibc
           Version: unspecified
            Status: NEW
          Severity: normal
          Priority: P2
         Component: localedata
        AssignedTo: libc-locales at sources dot redhat dot com
        ReportedBy: r_runner at poczta dot onet dot pl
                CC: glibc-bugs at sources dot redhat dot com


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[Bug localedata/4789] incorrect abmon in polish locales

glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de

------- Additional Comments From r_runner at poczta dot onet dot pl  2007-07-14 06:46 -------
ISO/IEC TR 14652

abmon Define the abbreviated month names, to be referenced by the %b field
      descriptor. The operand consists of twelve or thirteen semicolon-
      separated strings. The first string is the *abbreviated name* of the first
      month of the year (January), the second the *abbreviated name* of the
      second month, and so on.

In pl_PL ver. 1.19 (Revision 1.12.2.5, fedora-glibc-2_6-4, fedora-glibc-2_6-3) is:
I   - first month of the year (mon in polish styczeñ)
II  - second      (mon in polish luty)
III - third       (mon in polish marzec)
IV
V
VI
VII
VIII
IX
X
XI
XII

Definition of abmon was correct in previous versions (1.18 or less):

sty - first month (from styczeñ)
lut - second (from luty)
mar - from marzec
and so on.




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[Bug localedata/4789] incorrect abmon in polish locales

glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de
In reply to this post by glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de

------- Additional Comments From Arfrever dot FTA at GMail dot Com  2007-07-14 16:37 -------
It was broken in bug 3156.

My suggestion is to use arabic numerals for months:
01 (Styczeń)
02 (Luty)
03 (Marzec)
04 (Kwiecień)
05 (Maj)
06 (Czerwiec)
07 (Lipiec)
08 (Sierpień)
09 (Wrzesień)
10 (Październik)
11 (Listopad)
12 (Grudzień)

Parts of date would be divided by ".", e. g. today would be "14.07.2007".

What do you think about it?

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[Bug localedata/4789] incorrect abmon in polish locales

glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de
In reply to this post by glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de

------- Additional Comments From jakub at redhat dot com  2007-07-15 19:54 -------
You need to dispute BZ#3156.
Usually claims that something in locale is incorrect are highly subjective,
you need to prove it with standard reference, or if there is a lack thereof,
with newspaper references, etc.

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[Bug localedata/4789] incorrect abmon in polish locales

glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de
In reply to this post by glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de

------- Additional Comments From r_runner at poczta dot onet dot pl  2007-07-16 12:21 -------
Roman numerals are a little bit archaic and used in some publications especially
in publications about history and in "elegant" style documents.
In Polish standard "Data elements and interchange formats -- Information
interchange -- Representation of dates and times" PN-EN 28601:2000 based on ISO
8601 there is no place for Roman numerals.

http://www.pkn.pl/index.php?lang=en&m=katalog&a=find&cmd=&pfsymbol=28601&pfsymbolopt=e&pfname=&pfnameopt=e&pfrows=50&submit.x=42&submit.y=5

(again)
In ISO/IEC TR 14652:
abmon (...) The first string is the *abbreviated name* of the first
      month of the year (January), the second the *abbreviated name* of the
      second month, and so on

Abbreviated name it's mean abbreviated name not numbers or letters like I, X or V.

In Polish dictionaries there are no rules for abbreviating *month names*. I
found only one standard PN-85/N-01158 "Abbreviations of words and expressions in
bibliographic description"

http://www.pkn.pl/index.php?lang=en&m=katalog&a=find&cmd=&pfsymbol=01158&pfsymbolopt=e&pfname=&pfnameopt=e&pfreplace=&pfreplaceopt=e&pfinsert=&pfinsertopt=e&pfics=&pfkt=&pfrows=50&submit.x=36&submit.y=2

This is very old standard (1985) and for bibliographic description so I think
that with no rules the best choice is 3-letter names, as it was before. Notation
like this are good readable and understoodable for all.


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[Bug localedata/4789] incorrect abmon in polish locales

glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de
In reply to this post by glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de

------- Additional Comments From r_runner at poczta dot onet dot pl  2007-07-16 14:57 -------
Mr Engelking I need Your opinion about Polish locales and PN-EN 28601:2000 standard.



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[Bug localedata/4789] incorrect abmon in polish locales

glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de
In reply to this post by glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de

------- Additional Comments From Arfrever dot FTA at GMail dot Com  2007-07-16 17:38 -------
Most Poles use arabic numerals for months. Parts of date are delimited by ".".

Some exemplary sites:

http://www.onet.pl (miscellaneous general information)

http://www.gpw.pl (Warsaw Stock Exchange)
http://gielda.wp.pl (some financial information)
http://fundusze.wp.pl (some financial information)

http://www.premier.gov.pl (Polish Prime Minister)
http://www.msp.gov.pl (Polish Ministry of the Treasury)
http://www.mswia.gov.pl (Polish Ministry of Interior and Administration)

http://www.pekao.com.pl (some major Polish bank)
http://brebank.pl (some major Polish bank)

http://www.bdpn.pl (Bieszczady National Park)
http://kampinoski-pn.gov.pl (Kampinos National Park)
http://www.pngs.pulsar.net.pl (Stolowe Mountains National Park)

http://www.pis.org.pl (some political party yet governing in Poland)
http://www.sld.pl (some oppositional political party)

http://www.us.edu.pl (University of Silesia)
http://www.univ.gda.pl (Gdańsk University)
http://www.uni.wroc.pl/!nowastrona/ (University of Wrocław)


Another solution would be to introduce ISO 8601.

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[Bug localedata/4789] incorrect abmon in polish locales

glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de
In reply to this post by glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de

------- Additional Comments From Arfrever dot FTA at GMail dot Com  2007-07-16 17:45 -------
(In reply to comment #4)
> Some URLs

Are you aware of that you posted links to paid resources?

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[Bug localedata/4789] incorrect abmon in polish locales

glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de
In reply to this post by glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de

------- Additional Comments From r_runner at poczta dot onet dot pl  2007-07-16 18:19 -------
I am very sorry but with polish standards there are 2 possibilities: to buy or
to read in library. I think that this same situation is in other countries
(Swiss for example)
Displaying in ISO 8601 format is no problem (from man: #date --iso-8601).

I can't choose the best links so try with google:
sty +lut +mar +pa¼ gov (with Search Polish pages)
Try this same with abday
pon +wto +¶ro +gru gov

Arabic numerals with dot (16.07.2007) is the last instance, but this is only
*short numeric date* with month not abbreviated so what with ISO/IEC TR 14652?



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[Bug localedata/4789] incorrect abmon in polish locales

glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de
In reply to this post by glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de

------- Additional Comments From r_runner at poczta dot onet dot pl  2007-07-16 18:29 -------
There was mistake so once again

> sty +lut +mar +pa¼ gov (with Search Polish pages)
> Try this same with abday
> pon +wto +¶ro +gru gov
 
pon +wto +¶ro +czw gov

or combination eg. sty +lut +mar +pon +wto +czw gov



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[Bug localedata/4789] incorrect abmon in polish locales

glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de
In reply to this post by glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de

------- Additional Comments From Arfrever dot FTA at GMail dot Com  2007-07-16 19:00 -------
(In reply to comment #8)
> I am very sorry but with polish standards there are 2 possibilities: to buy
> or to read in library.

OK. You expected that some e. g. Czech will go to Poland to search something
in a library :) .

(In reply to comment #8)
> Displaying in ISO 8601 format is no problem (from man: #date --iso-8601).

There are many programs other than `date` using date locales (e. g. `svn
log`). Most of them don't support customizing of any aspects of date
independently from used locale.

(In reply to comment #8)
> Arabic numerals with dot (16.07.2007) is the last instance, but this is only
> *short numeric date* with month not abbreviated so what with ISO/IEC TR
> 14652?

It is English-specific. It doesn't reflect the fact that some languages (at
least almost) never use abbreviated months names.

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[Bug localedata/4789] incorrect abmon in polish locales

glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de
In reply to this post by glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de

------- Additional Comments From r_runner at poczta dot onet dot pl  2007-07-16 20:19 -------
(In reply to comment #10)
> (In reply to comment #8)
> > I am very sorry but with polish standards there are 2 possibilities: to buy
> > or to read in library.
>
> OK. You expected that some e. g. Czech will go to Poland to search something
> in a library :) .

Not me. It's a ....... copyrights.

> (In reply to comment #8)
> > Arabic numerals with dot (16.07.2007) is the last instance, but this is only
> > *short numeric date* with month not abbreviated so what with ISO/IEC TR
> > 14652?
>
> It is English-specific. It doesn't reflect the fact that some languages (at
> least almost) never use abbreviated months names.

Was English-specific like Whiskey. What is in Poland now You saw in google.

Few links, from finance through church to flowers:

National Bank of Poland (NBP),
Inflation Report 2005
http://www.nbp.pl/Publikacje/o_polityce_pienieznej/raport_o_inflacji/raport_sierpien2005.pdf
other document from NBP
http://www.nbp.pl/statystyka/Pieniezna_i_bankowa/DWN/miarypieniadza_nowe.xls

Ministry of Finance, (MF)
http://bip.mf.gov.pl/dokument.php?const=5&dzial=724&id=69871
http://bip.mf.gov.pl/dokument.php?const=5&dzial=53&id=69278
in english version try Ministry of Finance, Public dept, Treasury bonds or
Treasury bills and than issuance calendar

Wikipedia example:
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedysta:Yves6
http://pl.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dyskusja_wikipedysty:Anita_tr&action=history

WARSAW UNIVERSITY OF TECHNOLOGY
http://www.coi.pw.edu.pl/portal/pls/portal/COI.show_projgantt?d=139
or from google because its .mpp file
http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:ZYyVbPrbsrUJ:www.coi.pw.edu.pl/portal/pls/portal/COI.show_projgantt%3Fd%3D139+sty+%2Blut+%2Bmar+%2Bpa%C5%BA&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=61&gl=pl&client=firefox-a

Katowice ARCHDIOCESE
http://www.katowice.ksm.org.pl/archiwum/2006-10

Ministry of Sport, Permissions for Schooling
http://www.msport.gov.pl/download/dokumenty/wykaz_jednostek,_ktore_uzyskaly_zgody_na_szkolenie.pdf

Travell Office example
http://www.travelplanet.pl/przewodnik/chorwacja/porady-praktyczne/temperatury.html

Bloom of Orchid
http://www.orchidarium.pl/kwitnienie/rodzaje.php?r=Paphiopedilum


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[Bug localedata/4789] incorrect abmon in polish locales

glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de
In reply to this post by glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de

------- Additional Comments From r_runner at poczta dot onet dot pl  2007-07-17 07:02 -------
From the other hand.

Look how peoples from polish linux communities are trying to workaround Roman
numerals:
http://zergu.jogger.pl/2007/06/09/polskie-miesiace-w-systemie-eee/
or revert locales to previous version>
http://ecik.nonlogic.org/blog/wpisy/31-daty-w-f7

The world Wide Web for example, in the begining it was English-specific (no
other characters) and now?

Do You think that basic, fundamental locales must be made according to todays
national's dictionaries or traditional (before computers) conventions?
Today everyone could change displaying of date format to iso 8601 with one
command but how to change it to displaying "sty", "lut", "mar", "kwi" without
knowing scripts or other programing languages?

There is a lot of questions, so maybe Mr. Keld Simonsen will help us?



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[Bug localedata/4789] incorrect abmon in polish locales

glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de
In reply to this post by glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de

------- Additional Comments From Arfrever dot FTA at GMail dot Com  2007-07-17 22:12 -------
Your suggestion is against rules of Polish ortography.

Abbreviations of normal, single words have such rules:
1. If an abbreviation doesn't contain the last letter of an abbreviated word,
it should end with dot.
 Examples:
  godz. - godzina
  tel. - telefon
  pn. - poniedzialek

2. If an abbreviation contains the last letter of an abbreviated word, it
should not end with dot.
 Examples:
  nr - numer
  dr - doktor
  mgr - magister


http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skrót
http://so.pwn.pl/lista.php?co=poniedzia%B3ek
http://so.pwn.pl/lista.php?co=wtorek
http://so.pwn.pl/lista.php?co=%B6roda
http://so.pwn.pl/lista.php?co=czwartek
http://so.pwn.pl/lista.php?co=pi%B1tek
http://so.pwn.pl/lista.php?co=sobota
http://so.pwn.pl/lista.php?co=niedziela

3. Abbreviations must not contain "i" when it is only softening.
 Example:
  kwiecien - abbreviation should be "kw."

4. Abbreviations should not divide letters indicating only one sound, e.
g. "rz" means English "zh", cz means English "ch" etc.

Valid abbreviations of months would be:
st.
lut.
marz.
kw.
maj
cz.
lip.
srp.
wrz.
paź.
lis.
gr.

But of course these abbreviations aren't used, so the best solution is to
either use arabic numerals or ISO 8601.

Remember, that some use of incorrect abbreviations like "sty" doesn't justify
introducing them to Polish GLibC locale.

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[Bug localedata/4789] incorrect abmon in polish locales

glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de
In reply to this post by glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de

------- Additional Comments From r_runner at poczta dot onet dot pl  2007-07-18 08:21 -------
(In reply to comment #13)

> Your suggestion is against rules of Polish ortography.
> (...)
>
> 3. Abbreviations must not contain "i" when it is only softening.
>  Example:
>   kwiecien - abbreviation should be "kw."
>
> 4. Abbreviations should not divide letters indicating only one sound, e.
> g. "rz" means English "zh", cz means English "ch" etc.
> Valid abbreviations of months would be:
> st.
> lut.
> marz.
> kw.
> maj
> cz.
> lip.
> srp.
> wrz.
> paź.
> lis.
> gr.

Where did you found "Valid abbreviations of months" because I can't, beside
PN-85/N-01158 "Abbreviations of words and expressions in bibliographic description"

This ortographical rules are valid only for "marz." and "kw." There is no
ortographical problems for "sty.", "cze.", "sie." and "gru." All others are
correct 3-letters.



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[Bug localedata/4789] incorrect abmon in polish locales

glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de
In reply to this post by glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de

------- Additional Comments From r_runner at poczta dot onet dot pl  2007-07-18 09:58 -------
OK.
Start again.
I think I know where is the problem.

1. I am talking about "system" which must be standarized and compatible all over
the world (standards like ISO/IEC TR 14652 was written for). Dots in abmon and
abday are only redundant information for nothing. This point of view is good for
logs and other low-levels.
2. You are talking about user's interface (word processors, mail programs and so
on). Dictionaries and ortographical rules are for this. Here, dots in abmon and
abday are important and everything must be made according to country's rules.

So, If there is no way now to restore old version of polish locales than we must
meet half way and use your proposition for abmon as a 2 digit month abbreviated
name e.g. "18.07.2007".

But my question about "Valid abbreviations of months" in Poland is still valid.


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[Bug localedata/4789] incorrect abmon in polish locales

glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de
In reply to this post by glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de

------- Additional Comments From r_runner at poczta dot onet dot pl  2007-07-18 15:00 -------
(In reply to comment #13)

By the way:

> http://so.pwn.pl/lista.php?co=poniedzia%B3ek
pon.
> http://so.pwn.pl/lista.php?co=wtorek
wt.
> http://so.pwn.pl/lista.php?co=%B6roda
¶r
> http://so.pwn.pl/lista.php?co=czwartek
czw.
> http://so.pwn.pl/lista.php?co=pi%B1tek
pt.
> http://so.pwn.pl/lista.php?co=sobota
sob.
> http://so.pwn.pl/lista.php?co=niedziela
ndz

Everything with small letters.

This is an example from  bug 3156 [calendar of PWN (Polish Scientific
Publishers) publisher of the largest and most authoritative Polish-language
encyclopedias and dictionaries].
http://kalendarz.pwn.pl/
yes, this same scientific publisher as above but abday different and wihtout dots.

Do you feel now why I am fighting for standard? For 3-letter and constant lenght
as it was few years in GLibC localedata?
I think that past few years was the best practice for ISO/IEC TR 14652 in polish
locales.


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[Bug localedata/4789] incorrect abmon in polish locales

glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de
In reply to this post by glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de

------- Additional Comments From Arfrever dot FTA at GMail dot Com  2007-07-18 17:19 -------
(In reply to comment #14)
> There is no ortographical problems for "sty.", "cze.", "sie." and "gru." All
> others are correct 3-letters.

http://so.pwn.pl/zasady.php?id=629566
"UWAGI:
1) W języku polskim skrót pojedynczego wyrazu kończy się na spółgłoskę. Do
wyjątków należą: a. (= albo), o. (= ojciec) oraz skróty zapożyczone, np. ha (=
hektar)."

In English:
"NOTES:
1) In Polish, an abbreviation of a single word ends with a consonant. The
following ones belong to exceptions: a. (=albo) <English "or">, o. (=ojciec)
<English "father", used in cases of church orders> and loaned abbreviations,
e. g. ha (=hektar) <English "hectare">."

(In reply to comment #15)
> Dots in abmon and abday are only redundant information for nothing.

But they are necessary.

> 2. You are talking about user's interface (word processors, mail programs
and so
> on). Dictionaries and ortographical rules are for this. Here, dots in abmon
and
> abday are important and everything must be made according to country's
rules.

Dots are important everywhere when an abbreviation doesn't contain the last
letter of an abbreviated word.

> But my question about "Valid abbreviations of months" in Poland is still
valid.

I meant "correct, but unused".

(In reply to comment #16)
And with dots.

> Do you feel now why I am fighting for standard?

I am fighting for such a standard which is in accordance with rules of Polish
ortography.

http://so.pwn.pl/zasady.php?id=629747 lists correct date representations.

The following sites also contain some useful rules.
http://so.pwn.pl/zasady.php?id=629743
http://so.pwn.pl/zasady.php?id=629574

To summarize:
16 I 2007 - correct, but archaic
16.01.2007 - correct
16 st. 2007 - correct, but never used
16 sty 2007 - incorrect
2007-01-16 - (ISO 8601) semicorrect, unfortunately rather discouraged, allowed
when required by data processing systems

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[Bug localedata/4789] incorrect abmon in polish locales

glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de
In reply to this post by glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de

------- Additional Comments From Arfrever dot FTA at GMail dot Com  2007-07-18 17:22 -------
I personally prefer ISO 8601, but I think that "16.01.2007" format is the best
compromise since it has constant 2-digit length.

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[Bug localedata/4789] incorrect abmon in polish locales

glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de
In reply to this post by glaubitz at physik dot fu-berlin.de

------- Additional Comments From r_runner at poczta dot onet dot pl  2007-07-19 08:44 -------
(In reply to comment #17)

> > But my question about "Valid abbreviations of months" in Poland is still
> valid.
>
> I meant "correct, but unused".

But this abbreviations are unused and correct too:
st.     -> stcz.
kw.     -> kwc.
cz.     -> czw. czr.
gr.     -> grd.

So, where did you found that ones as correct?

> > > http://so.pwn.pl/lista.php?co=%B6roda
> > ¶r
> > > http://so.pwn.pl/lista.php?co=niedziela
> > ndz
> >
> > Everything with small letters.
>
> And with dots.

sorry, my mistake

> I am fighting for such a standard which is in accordance with rules of Polish
> ortography.

OK, so read this:
http://poradnia.pwn.pl/lista.php?id=8124 [(Abbreviating names of days and month)
Language guide of PWN]
Jan Grzenia PhD Lecturer, author of this article is from University of Silesia,
Faculty of Philology Institute of Polish Language Division of Contemporary
Polish Language.

http://english.us.edu.pl/?op=kstel_info&id_prac=645&PHPSESSID=4ec4ec29d53f3e52b7be86bc96b1b48e

In short:
"in computer systems, ortographical rules can be violate e.g. pon., wto., ¶ro.,
czw., pi±., sob., nie. (this abb. can be with no dots too), but the rules how to
do it and for what, must be strictly defined".

So, you can realize rules which are strictly defined in ISO/IEC TR 14652 and as
it was before GLibC 2.6.3

but:
if you choose "today's dictionary" way in place of international standard, don't
forget to change abday.


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